Author: Romeo

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:33 am

Hmmm, it’s really hard to figure out what his intentions are. From what you said in your first post, about the plan has always been to taper down slow and steady and when you’re ready, you’ll jump off…..that makes me think your doctor is just pushing you? He may have no real intentions of starting you on Naltrexone yet? It’s really hard to say, though.

He may be dead serious about putting you on Naltrexone because he believe that’s the best course of action for you? Again, it’s very hard to say.

What you have to do is convince him that getting off of Suboxone is not the best course of action for you. I would talk to him about the progress you’ve made, but I’d also mention that you’re just not ready for the jump yet. If he insists on getting you off of Suboxone, I would plead with him to let you continue lowering your dose because jumping from anywhere near where you are isn’t gonna be pretty. Ideally, you should taper well below 1mg. Getting well under 1mg before you jump will minimize your wd greatly. Honestly, if I were you, I’d shoot for getting to .25mg. We’ve had several people jump from around .25mg and their wd has been very mild.

I don’t know how you get your doctor to understand that 6mg or anything near that dose is too high to jump off of. If you tell him you heard it on the internet, he’ll just scoff at you.

You could try to look up some of Dr. J’s articles about tapering, print them out and maybe your doctor would be willing to read what another doctor has wrote?

Author: homer

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:54 am

Pm me mate, there is no need to wait and go thru all that, if your desperate to get on suboxone and u r sure ur ready to committ to staying on it…Pm me

Romeo is on the ball with saying trying low doses, counter intuitively the lower the dose the better u will feel, on my first time I ended up taking about 64 mg, never felt so bad in my life, but kept thinking maybe more will make it better…it won’t

You need to work up slowly, but pm me if u want and il explain in more detail

Cheers

Homer

Author: homer

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:54 am

Pm me mate, there is no need to wait and go thru all that, if your desperate to get on suboxone and u r sure ur ready to committ to staying on it…Pm me

Romeo is on the ball with saying trying low doses, counter intuitively the lower the dose the better u will feel, on my first time I ended up taking about 64 mg, never felt so bad in my life, but kept thinking maybe more will make it better…it won’t

You need to work up slowly, but pm me if u want and il explain in more detail

Cheers

Homer

Author: homer

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:28 am

Winning,

I’ve had a less than warm welcome from a few peeps on my return here, from peeps who didn’t even read my post I reckon. Far as i know, ive done nothing to hurt anyone, Non judgemental is the way to be. Who is anyone to judge you ?

You helped make me feel welcome here, I would not have ever come back to this forum if only the negative posts were there when I logged back in. you were a part of making me feel welcome enough to revisit – thank u for that

Homer

Author: homer

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:28 am

Winning,

I’ve had a less than warm welcome from a few peeps on my return here, from peeps who didn’t even read my post I reckon. Far as i know, ive done nothing to hurt anyone, Non judgemental is the way to be. Who is anyone to judge you ?

You helped make me feel welcome here, I would not have ever come back to this forum if only the negative posts were there when I logged back in. you were a part of making me feel welcome enough to revisit – thank u for that

Homer

Author: homer

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:37 am

Mate, any form of buprenorphine will bring on precipitated withdrawals, it has nothing to do with that whatsoever. Subutex/ suboxone/ buprenorphine – all the same thing ( as most of u know suboxone has naloxone in it which is entirely irrelevant ) it is buprenorphine which causes the wds if taken too soon, but only if u take a big enough dose

Author: homer

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:37 am

Mate, any form of buprenorphine will bring on precipitated withdrawals, it has nothing to do with that whatsoever. Subutex/ suboxone/ buprenorphine – all the same thing ( as most of u know suboxone has naloxone in it which is entirely irrelevant ) it is buprenorphine which causes the wds if taken too soon, but only if u take a big enough dose

Author: rkolle01

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:45 am

I’ve read that at least 2 studies show that Suboxone and LowT do not have a relationship. I have only viewed one of them. It is unconvincing.

Suboxone, LowT, Smoking & Cancer
Technically speaking, smoking does not cause lung cancer either. Google evidence primary smoking lung cancer for those who are dedicated to the belief that one should smoke cigarettes and not worry about getting cancer. Their argument is that the a US white male smoker has an 8% chance of dying of lung cancer, while a US white male nonsmoker has a 1 % chance of dying of lung cancer. Based on the 1999 world health organization data, their statistics are factually true. 92% of US white male smokers do NOT die of lung cancer.

One could make the same argument regarding Suboxone and LowT. Some people have posted to this forum and said they took Suboxone and it:
a) had no effect on their T (normal before & after or low before & after)
b) did have an effect on their T (normal before, low after)

Confirmatory Case Study
Colameco, Coren, & Zimmerman (2008) found this to be the case in their qualitative case study of 10 patients. All 10 had lowT, but they could not confirm the timing of the onset. However, based on their interviews of the cases, they concluded that it is POSSIBLE that a relationship exists between Suboxone and LowT.

Disconfiming Experimental Study
The Bliesener et al. (2005) study did NOT find a relationship between LowT and Suboxone in 17 patients. The data from the control group (n=51) and Suboxone group (n=17) shared the same range. The methadone group (n=37) had a range that was lower … the top end corresponded with the low end of the other two groups. (see figure below or attached)

While this is a very rigorous study that I respect, it does not prove that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Suboxone to cause LowT. It is not enough for me to say to someone, "go ahead and take Suboxone" without weighing the obvious positive benefits with the potential negative risks.

Based on these 2 studies, one could say that Suboxone may cause LowT. It is not unscientific to say it is a risk. However, one cannot make that suggestion with much of a degree of confidence either way based on 2 studies totaling 27 patients on Suboxone.

One or two studies are not enough to prove that Suboxone and LowT do (or do not) have a relationship.

References

Bliesener, M., Albrecht, S., Schwager, A., Weckbecker, K., Lichtermann, D. & Klingmuller, D. (2005). Plasma testosterone and sexual function in men receiving buprenorphine maintenance for opioid dependence. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 90(1), 203-206.

Colameco, S., Coren, J. S., & Zimmerman, D. J. (2008). Buprenorphine-induced symptomatic hypogonadism in men: Case reports and discussion. Journal of Addiction Medicine 2(3): 147-150

Author: rkolle01

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:45 am

I’ve read that at least 2 studies show that Suboxone and LowT do not have a relationship. I have only viewed one of them. It is unconvincing.

Suboxone, LowT, Smoking & Cancer
Technically speaking, smoking does not cause lung cancer either. Google evidence primary smoking lung cancer for those who are dedicated to the belief that one should smoke cigarettes and not worry about getting cancer. Their argument is that the a US white male smoker has an 8% chance of dying of lung cancer, while a US white male nonsmoker has a 1 % chance of dying of lung cancer. Based on the 1999 world health organization data, their statistics are factually true. 92% of US white male smokers do NOT die of lung cancer.

One could make the same argument regarding Suboxone and LowT. Some people have posted to this forum and said they took Suboxone and it:
a) had no effect on their T (normal before & after or low before & after)
b) did have an effect on their T (normal before, low after)

Confirmatory Case Study
Colameco, Coren, & Zimmerman (2008) found this to be the case in their qualitative case study of 10 patients. All 10 had lowT, but they could not confirm the timing of the onset. However, based on their interviews of the cases, they concluded that it is POSSIBLE that a relationship exists between Suboxone and LowT.

Disconfiming Experimental Study
The Bliesener et al. (2005) study did NOT find a relationship between LowT and Suboxone in 17 patients. The data from the control group (n=51) and Suboxone group (n=17) shared the same range. The methadone group (n=37) had a range that was lower … the top end corresponded with the low end of the other two groups. (see figure below or attached)

While this is a very rigorous study that I respect, it does not prove that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Suboxone to cause LowT. It is not enough for me to say to someone, "go ahead and take Suboxone" without weighing the obvious positive benefits with the potential negative risks.

Based on these 2 studies, one could say that Suboxone may cause LowT. It is not unscientific to say it is a risk. However, one cannot make that suggestion with much of a degree of confidence either way based on 2 studies totaling 27 patients on Suboxone.

One or two studies are not enough to prove that Suboxone and LowT do (or do not) have a relationship.

References

Bliesener, M., Albrecht, S., Schwager, A., Weckbecker, K., Lichtermann, D. & Klingmuller, D. (2005). Plasma testosterone and sexual function in men receiving buprenorphine maintenance for opioid dependence. Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, 90(1), 203-206.

Colameco, S., Coren, J. S., & Zimmerman, D. J. (2008). Buprenorphine-induced symptomatic hypogonadism in men: Case reports and discussion. Journal of Addiction Medicine 2(3): 147-150

Author: Diary of a Quitter

Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:00 pm

Jesus Christ, winningduhepic, IT WAS A JOKE.

Maybe you couldn’t tell that I was taking your question seriously by the other ten paragraphs I wrote in response to it, but I was in fact trying to be sincere and tell you what I’d found to work for me in my recovery.

I’m starting to think that you just want to be negative and contrary for the purpose of stirring up drama on the forum. If that’s what you want to do, take it to the Freestyle section please.