Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 9:57 am
Differences between bup and heroin besides there legal status?
1. Bup will not get you high once stabilized
2. No more shooting up (yes there are a small # of idiots that abuse it)
3. Bup is not your doc
4. It is almost impossible to od on bup (yes, there have been very few cases when mixed with benzos)
I still view this as nothing more than enabling, if this was a mother doing this for her addict son I don’t think many would hesitate to call her an enabler. Also what is stopping them from still using on the street? They just now have 3 fixes free a day. What employer would allow their employee to leave work 3 times a day to go shoot heroin and come back to work?
Clean needles, even a place hygenic to shoot up I get but giving them heroin as well to me just goes to far. What’s the consequences to being a junkie now?
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:41 am
It’s so nice to have a community to turn to. I often wonder if I would have had the resources I have today back then would things be different? Nonetheless, it is very comforting today to the suffering addict etc…btw I was on a website SAMSHA and…I came up on this article you might want to post a sticky in the pregnancy forum Hatmaker
Buprenorphine Favoured Over Methadone for Opiate Addiction in Pregnancy
Because not too long ago methadone was noted as the best nethod of treatment when pregnant. And….SAMSHA is a very reliable website as they pretty much govern over the Opoid Treatment Facilities.
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:47 am
Dear No Sub and others,
I am Marc and I posted that I am tapering right now. I am on day 2 of 0.5 and will quit next Friday. I have several pieces already cut up to 0.25. I will also start taking the product "Withdrawal Ease". That’s just various vitamins that will not do anything other than help. beside it will also give me a little piece of mind.
But No Sub you have truly convinced me that we can do if we put our will to it. So many Other people have even said the same. Of course there will always be those that will not believe. Too bad for them and hoary for us
Thanks and maybe you could share more.
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:54 am
| I have no Idea, but consider yourself very lucky. It’s almost like the best Christmas present I have heard about. I would have been so panicked that I would have had terrible diarrhea and sweats/chills etc…From the panic alone. I am interested in what your next move is. Do you have a relapse prevention plan going on? Are you considering finding a new doc? Just wondering. I sometimes work myself up into a panic when I realize that at anytime these docs can just decide to yank it all up and we can be left in situations like yours. The way I look at it is we are addicts and if we mess up every once in a while it’s because the mentality is still there even if the "cravings are under arrest by the bupe and/or done. I think the only way a doctor should kick us out etc…Is if they have offered comprehensive therapy to include relapse prevention and then seen we just are not investing ourselves in our treatment. Just giving us a medicine that controls cravings and withdrawals alone does not help us at all when and if they kick us to the curb. Why these doctors are so shocked, pissed or wanting to punish us for behaving like addicts is when they are not treating the behaviors or causes should be up for examination to some type of board review etcâ€¦ They are treating the symptoms. (Itâ€™s kind of like cough syrup instead of antibiotics for bacterial flu) Cravings and/or withdrawals are symptoms/side effects of a much larger issue called addiction. |
If they want to be considered addictionologist, then they should be accountable for their treatment administered to their clients. Do doctors normally kick clients to the curb that are diabetics because they eat too much sugar? Or Cardiologist kicks patients out because they smoke? If they did and these clients die because they cannot get their medications are they liable? They should be. Andâ€¦to a degree, I am sure they are liable. Now I know there has to be a line drawn somewhere in the sand so as to a client cannot get their medications and continue to use illicit drugs, but that is why they should offer any and all services to help arrest the disease and then when the client still continues to behave like an addict, then their efforts (the doctors) have been made and the client is now accountable. I am sure some will disagree and I admit this is just my opinion.
I am not so sure about Bupe doctors as I have been on bupe but it was years ago and it was the subutex form and it was in a detox setting several times. I used it not as maintenance so to say, but with methadone if you continually use they usually donâ€™t kick you to the curb they do not let you take the advantages of level changes and/or take homes etcâ€¦
I am not sure as to why your doctor kicked you to the curb and maybe that link you provide above will say why, but I can almost for sure say that the doctor had not offered you all the services he should have to include relapse prevention and by kicking you out, he shows his lack of commitment to his clients as what if you would have suffered dearly? What if you in a dayâ€™s time etcâ€¦are lying dead in a shooting gallery somewhere? Was whatever you did so badly to deserve that? Someone somewhere and sometime soon needs to find that line in the sand and set up some accountability for these doctors that play GOD. Thank You for letting me vent my thoughts and feelings on your post. I hope I have not deflected the original post and/or your subject matter or post will still be responded to in the manner best fit for your needs. I am sorry this has happened to you and I hope you have a plan. We cannot depend on these doctors to always do whatâ€™s best so we need a plan.
Finallyachance, I have had precisely the same thoughts as you. Supposedly, addiction is a disease (which I believe it is) and these doctors are treating the disease of addiction. In treating any disease, there are no certainties. What about diabetics who don’t follow the prescribed diet, check their sugars as they should, or take their insulin as they should? What if their diabetes worsens because of those choices? Are they cut off their medications? I don’t think so and have never heard of it. What if a cancer patient does not follow their doctor’s directions? What if they skip chemo sessions? What if they have lung cancer and don’t stop smoking? Are they going to be cut off treatment? I don’t think so.
I think if addiction is to be seen as a disease, it needs to be given the same respect as other diseases and the person being treated should be given the respect that people with other disease are given. If an addict slips up, is that not a symptom of the disease? It’s ridiculous to tell someone they have a deadly disease and to give them a medication like Suboxone to treat it, but if that person doesn’t follow the precise treatment plan, the doctor can turn their back and walk away, regardless of how precarious a situation that puts the patient in. How can any doctor not worry terribly about a patient who they suddenly cut off Sub treatment, knowing how hard it can be to find another doctor. I really don’t get this aspect of Suboxone treatment and I hope at some point, this huge gap is addressed and remedied. People should not be afraid that they will be abandoned because they slip up. For anyone dependent on Suboxone, it’s a scary situation to be in.
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:16 pm
Hi Ladder and All,
It seems as if your actually read my original post with the care that I wrote. I say this because your post is exactly the routine I am taking to complete this part of my Life. My original Sub Doc is in total agreement with this procedure. Of course he really has not had a sub user quit yet and I will be his first.
you know the sad part is that the doctor he sent me to just wanted to keep me on sub’s? it really does not matter anymore. The time has come to get back to a true normal. don’t get me wrong but I did need the suboxone in my Life. It’s come time to move forward. I honestly feel that the suboxone help but in the end it also takes something away from me. I guess that would my Dignity. Sorry, but that’s just the way I feel.
Okay, your advice is what I need to hear and also my thoughts as well. I know the Withdrawal Ease is just vitamins, $90.00 worth But I figure that can’t hurt right Well at day 2 of 0.5mg, from 1.0 mg for a week and I have only slight withdrawals symptoms so far. That is due to the fast taper as you pointed out. I actually have colinidin but will not take it unless I need it to sleep, at night only. I don’t think I will need to lower my blood pressure any more than will happen naturally from the suboxone departing my system. The 0.25 mg pieces I have are for emergency use only And I have plenty of those. I have also heard that I could cut those in half and I am prepared to do that, again for emergency use only
Okay, thank you all so much and please keep the good advice flowing.
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:00 pm
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:06 pm
|Travis, you mentioned "skewed tests." I do not know of one way to "skew" a drug test to test + for opiates without having an actual opiate on hand. If you do, please share. With this in mind, I see no reason why a clinic or sub doc wouldn’t want to see a dirty u/a..especially when your methadone clinic required it.|
Also, what you described with the methadone was not a "skewed test." drug tests test for metabolites, not the drug itself. It can take a few hours for those metabolites to be created. This is why you passed the test an hour after using dope.
It was a ‘skewed test…’ The point I was trying to make with the negative test in treatment was that not only did I use an hour before the test, I used daily for years before the test and it was negative when it clearly should have been positive for opioids. Oh, and I do have at least one way to skew a test, one way that comes to mind is to use ‘dirty’ urine to test positive if wanted. What a dumb conversaton.
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:13 pm
I read your whole post and let me say you have been through alot to get to where u r at now. But in the end you did it and thats all that matters. As to what the future holds who knows but like the saying just take your time live day to day and only time will tell. You seem like you want to do it this time around and if u trully want this which i think you do everything will turn out to be fine. It sucks you have that condition that makes treating you with methadone difficult but i think if you stay with the same clinic and Dr you should not havee to worrie about being taken off your mmt program. And the more time you spend on methadone will work in your favor i bet and will ease your clinic and Drs worries about this. I know whats its like to be on a high dose and always in the back of your head what if they want to lower my dose over time to the point of it not working any more for me it would be my pain which could lead to a relapse if things got bad enough. And f i recall you are now doing a spilt dose how is that working for you?
Just keep strong and you can do this if u want it bad enough and like i said i think u do.
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:14 pm
Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:23 pm
|What most people do is tell their dr that they need a higher dose of bupe for example 32mg per day. which would be 4 8mg tabs. they stay with the program for a month or 2 and basically hoard a bunch of pills. typically some people i have spoken to get by ok on 8m-4mg a day but they tell their doctor otherwise. Not because they want to abuse the pills but by saving an extra 3 pills every day over the course of 2 months is an extra 180 tabs. which if you were only taking 8mg a day would last you half a year and save you the cost of paying for a dr and having to go to the pharmacy every day to get new meds. So thats the only solution i think is worth doing. It would be nice if regular family doctors or pain clinics would just prescribe it to people just like any other pain med and let you take home a month supply at a time. But for some reason it doesnt work that way. Hopefully one day that will change. I dont know anyone who is on Suboxone that has every been irresponsable with their meds.|
My Subutex scripts are written for 30 day periods, and I only see the doc every 2 months. When I run out, I have the pharmacy fax a refill request to his office and he signs it, same for my Temazepam.
I’ve been seeing him for about 8 months now. When I first started, I went every two weeks, then every month, and now every two months. I never fail the drug test except for weed, which he told me at the beginning he doesn’t care if his patients smoke, as long as they aren’t using dope, pills, coke, etc.
Is this not normal? Your scripts are written for 2 weeks?