Author: QuittingOpiatesSweden

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:49 pm

Hi I am having gall bladder removal in just a month, I have just started suboxone treatment a few days ago. I was going to have had the operation last week but I was too ill for them to operate on at that point.

I didn’t realize there could be an issue about suboxone in relation to gall bladder surgery.

In my country (Sweden) you don’t get any painkiller except over the counter acetaminophen/paracetamol after such minor surgery anyway. Is there any other reason that one would need to change the suboxone? Something about the anesthetic they use to put you under during surgery?

Author: Rmac04

Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:17 pm

Damn dude I guess you and me are pretty much in the same boat. I am at day 94 since my last little lapse and 8 months off subs and I have been feeling extremely edgy and like PAWS have kicked back in full force over the past week. I remember reading something regarding the milestones 30, 60, 90 days, 6 months, 9 months and a year and what is going on in your brain at those points. Ill try to find the article. I actually did the exact math you did today realizing if I only used once every 90 days.. well that is only 4 times a year. For me I just play the tape and realize how much just one day of use sets back my progress. I too want to cruise past this 90 day mark and I feel like the further and further we get away from it the harder it will be for us to just say fuck it and throw away our sobriety time. I guess we have a "Reservation" as they like to tell us in AA and hopefully that goes away for us at some point.. but we re thinkin on the same page brother. Stay strong. This too shall pass

Author: Caboose128

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:24 am

So I was always a believer (and I guess just part wishful thinker) that after my Suboxone treatment, and I mean at least a year down the road, life would just go back to normal. Like ending a chapter in my life and moving on. The doctor who got me inducted never spoke a word about long term side effects (or even short term side effects for that matter), and recently, due to beliefs that my previous doctor was actually not very confident he could get me off (he’s only been doing it for a year, has only got 3 people off. I dont want to be his guinea pig), I switched over to a different, independent Suboxone doctor, not one run through a rehab clinic. When I went to visit him, he warned me that there is a good chance that Suboxone will cause long term permanent side effects on my pain center in my brain. I would be more tolerable to pain, and also I guess this effects cravings too, as he said these would be more severe/consistent even years after treatment. Of course he said that you are more prone to this if you have a very long track record of abusing opiates before getting on Suboxone.

Anyone heard of this? I never would have guessed that 30 years down the road I’m gonna wake up and still be craving drugs. I sure hope not. I just want to move on with my life and never look back.

Author: Caboose128

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:33 am

My story in short: starting with occasional Vicodin, friend introduced to me Suboxone (before I had anything that could be considered a tolerance), and was abusing it about once a week. These in turn led to a time period of about 3 years, on and off use (quit for 6 months once, only smoking weed), then entering college, finding Suboxone there, and then going on little binges with it. 4 days on, a couple days off. Then 3 or so days on, one day off, roughly. This lasted about 3 or so months. Right after this I left college and checked myself into treatment. In retrospect, I realize this was a defiantly a mistake as I was going through little to no physical withdrawals, it was more the psychological ones that were getting to me. That on top of the fear of having to face the fact that I would never feel this good again. I should have just toughed it up and got off right then and there! I could have been sober and happy already! But instead I convinced my parents that I needed Suboxone. I was honest in my previous use sheet the Suboxone doctor had me fill out, and he said this would be the best thing for my addiction, you’ll feel normal, and there will be little to no withdrawals if you go slow. Seems weird, treating a Suboxone addiction with Suboxone, huh? I should of known better. I beat myself up everyday for making this choice, as now I am going to go through 10x worse withdrawals than I would have, I’m feeling terrible everyday, not sure whats to blame. I am thinking it is just side effects from subs as I even tried bumping up my dose and it did little to help. The symptoms I feel are low energy, frequent mood swings, overall weak feeling in my body/muscles/joints, worse depression/anxiety than ever, incredibly hard to concentrate/get motivated, terrible memory, and is making my ocd tendencies a lot worse (obsessive thoughts, stuff like thought suppression and that type). Overall I am more than ready to rid myself of this addiction. I realize it is helpful for a lot of people out there, I was just stupid and naive, and above all an addict.

Now I’m thinking that maybe these symptoms aren’t exactly coming from the subs, as most people and doctors I talk to state they are feeling normal if they take their usual dose, feel sick for 2-3 days when weening down and then feel normal again. I’m feeling like this all the time, and feel like it’s going to be incredibly hard to ween down on top of all of these feelings. During my sub treatment I got diagnosed with ADD and got put on adderall, have noticed it helped a lot in school and in combating the negative side effects from the bupe: depression, anxiety, constipation, low energy. So maybe it is a combination of the bupe and adderall that is making me feel bad everyday. When you think about it, it probably isn’t healthy to take a mini speedball everyday, even if it is through prescribed means. Uppers and downers together might not be the best thing to do everyday. I’m also on Clonidine to help with withdrawals, don’t know if this would have any effect or not. I just dont know what to do. I do have a couple theories though that provide me with a lot of hope. My first was that maybe it was the Naloxone in the suboxone that is making me feel this way, as some people can be hypersensitive to this. Looked up the side effects of it and they coincide with my symptoms pretty well. So I got switched to Subutex, have been on it for about 5 days, and think I do feel a little better than I was. Can’t tell if this is just placebo or not though.

Another theory of mine is that it could be low testosterone. The symptoms of low testosterone also sound like what I’m going through. However I’m a little hesitant to start this as most doctors are so wary about it. On the other hand, I think (and have no idea if I’m right about this) that if I’m only on it for 6 months in order to complete my bupe taper, there would be little to no dangers in doing so.
Or, one last idea I came up with is that my acne medicine, Minocycline, could be to blame. I’ve been on it for about 7 years now. It is an antibiotic and all antibiotics are known to weaken your immune system. The symptoms of a weak immune system also sounds like what I’m suffering from every day! Thus, from finding out this info, I have quit my acne medicine and started to take vitamin C and E to start strengthening up my immune system again.

Does anyone have any ideas or helpful advice? Anything is appreciated!
I just hope I can figure out why I’m feeling like this everyday so I can finally go through with my bupe taper and move on with my life!

Author: Caboose128

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:45 am

Hmm I’ve been reading a lot of this subject recently. Most people are saying that they find the Roxane brand not to work as well. They report having taking 4mg and it only feels like 2mg to them. I recently got switched from Suboxone to Subutex, and while I have not noticed any difference in anxiety levels (suboxone made me anxious as hell already), I do find that Subutex in general feels a lot purer than taking Suboxone. Don’t know if this is placebo or not, but I think I feel a little less depressed, and a little more energy coming back from switching to Subutex.

Also, I tried both the Teva and the Roxane brands as my pharmacy only had a 5 day supply of the Teva’s. I was worried at the start that the Roxane’s might not work based off of what everyone was saying, but I didn’t notice that huge of a difference. The only thing that’s weird is that I notice a slight headache, just an overall weird feeling that hards to describe, not a normal headache, from taking the Roxane brand.

Haven’t tried the main brand name though. Wonder if it’s any different.

Author: Caboose128

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:50 am

I defiantly feel a lot of this. When it’s cold, it’s pretty damn cold! I dread walking out of the shower, even right after I’ve taken my sub, just because of the extreme temperature fluctuation. Or when it’s rainy and windy outside, it feels like the cold runs straight through to your bones and chills ya!

It’s so weird that this happens though. Being an opiate and all you’d think it would carry at least some of that same warmth and body heat along with it.

Author: Mr Magoo

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:52 am

Wish I could edit my post. I said I got on Subs on December 2011, but I meant to type December of 2010. Hopefully my post makes more sense now.

Author: Caboose128

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:58 am

Yup I defiantly feel ya Dr. K. Amphetamines for me seem to be the only thing that helps fight off the extreme tiredness/fatigue/weakness that subs are giving me.

That’s interesting that it’s working wonders for your depression though. For me I find that my depression is worse now that it ever was before opiate use and during opiate use. I blame all the nasty side effects for making me feel this way. You do have a point how a lot of our emotions are numbed down though, kind of turning you into a zombie. For me, I was THAT heavy of a user and probably didn’t actually need sub, so this is the first time I’m actually experiencing not having emotions (although I have tried various SSRI’s before). I must say, I miss them. On the plus side, having them numbed probably does prevent us from feeling true sadness/despair/hopeless that usually accompanies depression, but I still feel like I can get pretty damn depressed some days. That seems to be the case more days than not.

I hope low testosterone levels are too blame so I don’t need to feel like this throughout my sub detox. Weird thing is a felt the same amount of tiredness on 24mg as I did on 4mg. I sure hope this is the cure so I dont need to resort to adderall to help fight off the bad symptoms of subs anymore. True, I may actually have add (got diagnosed with it, but who knows if that’s for sure or not? There’s no surefire way to tell), and I really don’t want to be taking something I don’t actually need, especially something that could be jeopardizing my recovery.

Author: StillProdigy

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:09 am

It sounds like a case of naltraxone allergy. Maybe try spittin out the excess spit, that might help. Your dr. Woukd know best, maybe he would be willing to do a subutex trial. I read your intro post and it sounds like its difficukt to even get prescribed suboxone, but if you literally can’t take it then maybe subutex will be a viable option. You have to take supervised doses right? So that takes out the risk of abuse right there. I thought maybe you were having precipitated wd but after 7 days clean theres no way…maybe someone else will have a better answer for you. Good luck

Author: Caboose128

Posted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:10 am

I feel ya, TC, trust me I feel ya. I also suffer from intense anxiety and depression, and it seems like subs actually made these a lot worse for me. I’m in your same boat. It seems nigh impossible to start weaning down when feeling like this. Supposedly you’re supposed to feel "normal" while on subs. We’re already feeling bad, and purposely making ourselves feeling even worse, day after day, month after month, seems really hard.

I dont have any great advice as I’m going through this as well. Just hang in there, you will get off of this and your life will improve after you do so, granted you stay clean and sober and give your brain and neurotransmitters time to heal. Keep posting in this forum as your bound to eventually run into someone who’s been in your same situation and they can tell you how they got through it.

Also, maybe try out Clonidine for the anxiety. It also helps with withdrawals too! Most sub doctors prescribe this on the side towards the end stages, however mine put me on and i’m still at 4mg. It helps to lower your blood pressure, which in turn lowers your heart rate making you less anxious.

Oh and on the topic of weaning and jumping off, my advice (though I havent test it yet, just basing this off reading tons of posts) is to get down as low as you can go, as slow as possible. I figured out that I can cut the strips and the Subutex pills down to .06mg. I have a feeling that if i slowly lower my dose down to that, staying at each dose for a period of 2 weeks or so, that’s when there will truly be no withdrawals like most doctors promise. My tentative taper schedule would be as follows: getting down to 1mg should be the easy part, then after a period of time drop down to .75, stay on that for at least 2 weeks, or as long as you deem necessary until you feel your body has been accustomed to that dose, then go to .50mg and do the same process, then .25, followed by .125, then .06, and maybe even .03 if your still feelings nervous/mild withdrawals. Oh, and also I heard it was good that once you get down to the lower levels that i just listed, to try and get into a routine of skipping days in between doses. If you can get into a pattern of taking it every other day, in theory it should make it easier. And I’m hoping that it will be possible to reduce that even further and take it once every three days after that stage.

Ehhh..got a long road ahead of us. Hang in there though!