Does being on sub make you "not clean"?

Author: Ironic

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:34 pm

For those of you who feel clean, that is really nice.

However, NA does not agree with you.

WORLD SERVICE BOARD OF TRUSTEES BULLETIN #29

Regarding Methadone and Other
Drug Replacement Programs

This bulletin was written by the World Service Board of Trustees in 1996. It represents the views of the board at the time of writing.

Not all of us come to our first NA meeting drug free. Some of us were uncertain about whether recovery was possible for us and initially came to meetings while still using.

Others came to their first meetings on drug replacement programs such as methadone and found it frightening to consider becoming abstinent.

One of the first things we heard was that NA is a program of complete abstinence and "The only requirement for membership is the desire to stop using." Some of us, upon hearing these statements, may have felt that we were not welcome at NA meetings until we were clean. But NA members reassured us that this was not the case and we were encouraged to "keep coming back." We were told that through listening to the experience, strength, and hope of other recovering addicts that we too could find freedom from active addiction if we did what they did.

Many of our members, however, have expressed concern about individuals on drug replacement programs. Questions come up regarding such individuals’ membership status, ability to share at meetings, lead meetings, or become trusted servants on any level. "Are these members clean?" they ask. "Can one really be a ‘member’ and still be using?"

Perhaps by answering the most important question first—the issue of membership—we can establish a context by which to approach this issue. Tradition Three says that the only requirement for NA membership is a desire to stop using. There are no exceptions to this. Desire itself establishes membership; nothing else matters, not even abstinence. It is up to the individual, no one else, to determine membership. Therefore, someone who is using and who has a desire to stop using, can be a member of NA.

Members on drug replacement programs such as methadone are encouraged to attend NA meetings. But, this raises the question: "Does NA have the right to limit members participation in meetings?" We believe so. While some groups choose to allow such members to share, it is also a common practice for NA groups to encourage these members (or any other addict who is still using), to participate only by listening and by talking with members after the meeting or during the break. This is not meant to alienate or embarrass; this is meant only to preserve an atmosphere of recovery in our meetings.
Our Fifth Tradition defines our groups’ purpose: to carry the message that any addict can stop using and find a new way to live. We carry that message at our recovery meetings, where those who have some experience with NA recovery can share about it, and those who need to hear about NA recovery can listen. When an individual under the influence of a drug attempts to speak on recovery in Narcotics Anonymous, it is our experience that a mixed, or confused message may be given to a newcomer (or any member, for that matter) For this reason, many groups believe it is inappropriate for these members to share at meetings of Narcotics Anonymous.

It may be argued that a group’s autonomy, as described in our Fourth Tradition, allows them to decide who may share at their meetings. However, while this is true, we believe that group autonomy does not justify allowing someone who is using to lead a meeting, be a speaker, or serve as a trusted servant. Group autonomy stands only until it affects other groups or NA as a whole. We believe it affects other groups and NA as a whole when we allow members who are not clean to be a speaker, chair a meeting, or be a trusted servant for NA.

Many groups have developed guidelines to ensure that an atmosphere of recovery is
maintained in their meetings. The following points are usually included:

Suggesting that those who have used any drug within the last twenty-four hours refrain from sharing, but encouraging them to get together with members during the break or after the meeting.
Abiding by our fellowship’s suggested clean time requirements for service positions.
Seeking meeting leaders, chairpersons, or speakers who help further our primary purpose of carrying the message to the addict who still suffers.
We make a distinction between drugs used by drug replacement programs and other prescribed drugs because such drugs are prescribed specifically as addiction treatment. Our program approaches recovery from addiction through abstinence, cautioning against the substitution of one drug for another. That’s our program; it’s what we offer the addict who still suffers. However, we have absolutely no opinion on methadone maintenance or any other program aimed at treating addiction. Our only purpose in addressing drug replacement and its use by our members is to define abstinence for ourselves.
Our fellowship must be mindful of what kind of message we are carrying if a still-using addict leads a meeting, or becomes a trusted servant. We believe that under these circumstances we would not be carrying the Narcotics Anonymous message of recovery. Permissiveness in this area is not consistent with our traditions. We believe our position on this issue reinforces our recovery, protects our meetings, and supports addicts in striving for total abstinence.
Note: This bulletin addresses the use of methadone maintenance as a drug replacement strategy. It is not addressing the medicinal use of methadone as a pain killer. We encourage those who have concerns about the use of methadone in pain management to refer to Narcotics Anonymous pamphlet, In Times of Illness.

This is why I’m angry

Author: Ironic

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:39 pm

badabing16 wrote:
why r people angry about suboxone use…hmmm for starters i am not an opiate addict but my husband is and his addiction has ruined alot in our lives!!!! i am a recovering alcoholic who does a program of RECOVERY… i do not depend on meds to make me better or get me thru pain, anxiety, cravings!!! alcohol withdrawl is the only one a person can DIE from. yet all these opiate addicts can’t stand for 1 second to be sick…like the dr. said there are cancer patients who have to deal with incredible pain on a daily basis, along with the fact that they are dying!!!! i know several opiate addicts who did it the "old fashioned way" The just STOPPED!!!! yes the cravings are there and yes the physical symptoms suck….but it also does coming off of alcohol!! and by working a recovery program those cravings will dissipate. and guess what we don’t have a magic pill to take it away!!! i have been taught that drinking and using are just a symptom of this disease …so get down to the roots and causes,,,heal!!! every person i know who are on subs , including my husband sit back and use suboxone as a recovery…sorry doesnt work!!!! u need to deal with life on life’s terms!!! not to mention the financial burden it has put on us!!! funny how he (and most junkies) always find a way to pay for their script, but when it comes to bills or what have you…well that falls on the usually codependant!!!! i know the doc of the forum is all for it because he himself is a junkie plain and simple and i’m sorry but from my experience ….junkies are a different breed!!! they use the disease as an excuse…"well i don’t have a choice my disease was running my life" well my friend that is why there are programs out there to reduce the voice of the disease. and don’t u think it screams sometimes for us alcoholics? also the doc references subs as a way of saving a persons life…again and again and agian….there are other things, whether it be a 12 step program, religion or whatever that will also save ur life without once again being dependent on a pill!!!! and lastly…i don’t think opiate addicts have a clue what they do to those they love…..the pain the misery the worry are tremendous and for those who are a significant other of an addict who is also in recovery it jepordizes their recovery. every person i know who is on subs does nothing to change the person that they are…the stay sick and expect life to go back to "normal", and us loved ones should not live in the past!!!! i never wish the experience of living and loving an opiate addict on anyone and until u have u have no room to talk. anything u do say is for personal gain!!!

I can’t read your entire post because your spelling/grammar is so atrocious. Also because you are wrong right off the bat.

"Alcohol withdrawal is the only one you can die from."

WRONG. You can die from benzodiazepine withdrawal too.

You sound like you have "special addict" syndrome. Oh I’m sorry, calling you an addict is dissing you, isn’t it? ALCOHOLIC, my bad. You are also wrong about the "magic pill" thing. Many alcoholics use Antabuse, Vivitrol, and other drugs that help them with their dependencies.

Let me guess. Your sponsor told you not to go to college.

Would you send your daughter to AA/NA meetings? Honestly?

Author: Ironic

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:49 pm

spike93333 wrote:
omg yea i would send my daUGHTER to AA if she was doing drugs/alchoal. If i had the money a treatment program+AA. it’s the only way to go. so she doesent relapse, and fully understands her addiction. Because depending on the drugs she’s doing., you can’t just be on suboxone for life, that may not be her case. Also, i know some may want to, (but it is another opiate.
So my answer is YES!!! thats like saying……

Would you send your daughter to a PARTY? fuck no, or would you send her to AA??

Would you send your daughter the the dope house, or AA?

Theirs alot of options and to be honest, id rather see her go to womens group and or go to AA with her. I would rather see any young girl, attending 12step/treatments, rather than a party, or the dope house.

Please provide evidence supporting your claim that AA/NA is "the only way to go."

Even just some evidence that it works better than no treatment at all. A study, perhaps?

NA and suboxone…

Author: Ironic

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 7:51 pm

suboxdoc wrote:
Such a tough topic… the steps saved my life twice, so I certainly have respect for the message. I have two problems, though, with NA and AA in regard to opiate dependence. The first is that if you look at the numbers, getting and staying clean from AA or NA is a rare phenomenon. Very rare. Yes, it does occur– but the typical experience is repeated episodes of sobriety and using. A major problem with opiates is the fatal nature of opiate dependence– really ‘getting’ recovery often requires some sort of horrible rock bottom experience, and with opiates, people often die before that happens (or during the rock bottom experience). Trying to get an opiate addict to ‘get it’ through the steps by dragging him to meetings or forcing treatment is almost always a waste of time; success rates for forced residential treatment are very low. For a lucky 5-10%, it is a fabulous way to go. But now that we have an epidemic, a 90% failure rate just doesn’t cut it– it leaves too many dead bodies behind.

Next point… I see people at Nova, a residential center where I am medical director where they dislike Suboxone and never use it, and I see people in my office on Suboxone. I see NO evidence that the ‘quality of sobriety’ is better in the ‘step’ people. No evidence at all. To be honest, if I had to say which group tends to be employed, to have improving relationships, to be building self-esteem, and to stay on a positive path , I would pick the buprenorphine group. Sorry, but that is how I see it– and I was/am a ‘step recovery’ person. I expected to see a dry drunk phenomenon, but that is not the case– not at all.

Finally, I am not big on forcing NA or AA on people who take Suboxone. If they like the meetings, cool– go, and keep your medical info to yourself. But in my experience, ‘getting’ the steps and getting clean that way requires changing one’s personality, and that requires the addict to develop almost an obsession for NA or AA built from desperation– and addicts on Suboxone quickly lose their desperation. So for those addicts, the meetings are more of an educational experience than they are for a person NOT on Suboxone, who must really ‘give himself up’ and adapt to the steps.

I am disappointed that any addict– in or out of meetings– would try to say one addict is somehow more ‘clean’ than the next. Isn’t that what we call ‘taking another person’s inventory?’

No single person needs to say it. The NA World Service said it all.

WORLD SERVICE BOARD OF TRUSTEES BULLETIN #29

Regarding Methadone and Other
Drug Replacement Programs

This bulletin was written by the World Service Board of Trustees in 1996. It represents the views of the board at the time of writing.

Not all of us come to our first NA meeting drug free. Some of us were uncertain about whether recovery was possible for us and initially came to meetings while still using.

Others came to their first meetings on drug replacement programs such as methadone and found it frightening to consider becoming abstinent.

One of the first things we heard was that NA is a program of complete abstinence and "The only requirement for membership is the desire to stop using." Some of us, upon hearing these statements, may have felt that we were not welcome at NA meetings until we were clean. But NA members reassured us that this was not the case and we were encouraged to "keep coming back." We were told that through listening to the experience, strength, and hope of other recovering addicts that we too could find freedom from active addiction if we did what they did.

Many of our members, however, have expressed concern about individuals on drug replacement programs. Questions come up regarding such individuals’ membership status, ability to share at meetings, lead meetings, or become trusted servants on any level. "Are these members clean?" they ask. "Can one really be a ‘member’ and still be using?"

Perhaps by answering the most important question first—the issue of membership—we can establish a context by which to approach this issue. Tradition Three says that the only requirement for NA membership is a desire to stop using. There are no exceptions to this. Desire itself establishes membership; nothing else matters, not even abstinence. It is up to the individual, no one else, to determine membership. Therefore, someone who is using and who has a desire to stop using, can be a member of NA.

Members on drug replacement programs such as methadone are encouraged to attend NA meetings. But, this raises the question: "Does NA have the right to limit members participation in meetings?" We believe so. While some groups choose to allow such members to share, it is also a common practice for NA groups to encourage these members (or any other addict who is still using), to participate only by listening and by talking with members after the meeting or during the break. This is not meant to alienate or embarrass; this is meant only to preserve an atmosphere of recovery in our meetings.
Our Fifth Tradition defines our groups’ purpose: to carry the message that any addict can stop using and find a new way to live. We carry that message at our recovery meetings, where those who have some experience with NA recovery can share about it, and those who need to hear about NA recovery can listen. When an individual under the influence of a drug attempts to speak on recovery in Narcotics Anonymous, it is our experience that a mixed, or confused message may be given to a newcomer (or any member, for that matter) For this reason, many groups believe it is inappropriate for these members to share at meetings of Narcotics Anonymous.

It may be argued that a group’s autonomy, as described in our Fourth Tradition, allows them to decide who may share at their meetings. However, while this is true, we believe that group autonomy does not justify allowing someone who is using to lead a meeting, be a speaker, or serve as a trusted servant. Group autonomy stands only until it affects other groups or NA as a whole. We believe it affects other groups and NA as a whole when we allow members who are not clean to be a speaker, chair a meeting, or be a trusted servant for NA.

Many groups have developed guidelines to ensure that an atmosphere of recovery is
maintained in their meetings. The following points are usually included:

Suggesting that those who have used any drug within the last twenty-four hours refrain from sharing, but encouraging them to get together with members during the break or after the meeting.
Abiding by our fellowship’s suggested clean time requirements for service positions.
Seeking meeting leaders, chairpersons, or speakers who help further our primary purpose of carrying the message to the addict who still suffers.
We make a distinction between drugs used by drug replacement programs and other prescribed drugs because such drugs are prescribed specifically as addiction treatment. Our program approaches recovery from addiction through abstinence, cautioning against the substitution of one drug for another. That’s our program; it’s what we offer the addict who still suffers. However, we have absolutely no opinion on methadone maintenance or any other program aimed at treating addiction. Our only purpose in addressing drug replacement and its use by our members is to define abstinence for ourselves.
Our fellowship must be mindful of what kind of message we are carrying if a still-using addict leads a meeting, or becomes a trusted servant. We believe that under these circumstances we would not be carrying the Narcotics Anonymous message of recovery. Permissiveness in this area is not consistent with our traditions. We believe our position on this issue reinforces our recovery, protects our meetings, and supports addicts in striving for total abstinence.
Note: This bulletin addresses the use of methadone maintenance as a drug replacement strategy. It is not addressing the medicinal use of methadone as a pain killer. We encourage those who have concerns about the use of methadone in pain management to refer to Narcotics Anonymous pamphlet, In Times of Illness.

That’s it, Im done

Author: Bboy42287

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:52 pm

I am no mom but I am an addict and I am sorry I just don’t see being a mom an excuse to use again whether it is one day or 2 weeks! I mean think of the position you are putting your kid in by going back to using opiates again. What if this appointment doesn’t work out Monday than where does that leave you? But having to buy more dope till you hear from your old DR and who knows how long that could take. I just think you are putting yourself at way to much of a risk by doing this like breezy said you can go to the ER and spilt those 3 doses up till Monday it is going to suck but you are not going to relapse.

I don’t know I just don’t get how some people try to justify a relapse!

Did Anyone Else Finally Get Their Emotions Back While On Sub

Author: Bboy42287

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:58 pm

I wish my story was like this but it was the complete opposite for myself and I know a good amount of others on this forum as well. I lost all my emotions to suboxone it made me a emotionless zombie for 23 hours of the day. And I have never had depression or anything like that in my life till suboxone than once off it and on methadone all these issues disappeared.

Restless legs and hypnic jerks are NOT side effects

Author: Breezy_Ann

Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:20 pm

I have been on sub for almost 5 months now and my jerks, or spasms have gotten worse as time goes on. I know I am not in withdrawl and the other people I have talked to about this have been on sub even longer than me. Yes it can be a side effect of withdrawl as well but it also happens to some as a side effect from sub. If he upped you to 32mg I am guessing you were at 24mg before? If so I do not see how you could be in withdrawl, also you said its been a month since you started sub, withdrawl from full agonists (except methadone) only lasts 7-10 days. So with the dose you were at and the time its been I do not think you are experiencing withdrawl symptoms. Of course I am not a Dr but his diagnosis just doesn’t sound plausible to me.

I am glad the sub is helping your pain so well. The one (and only) thing I agree with your Dr about is if you continue to have pain relief from sub then there is no reason to come off. Thanks for posting your Dr’s thoughts but I humbly disagree.

How to Get Methadone : What You Need To Do Legally

How To Get Methadone : For Chronic Pain or Opioid Addiction

How To  Get Methadone

How To Get Methadone

If you are looking how to get methadone , there are two main, legal reasons for its use today.  The first is for the treatment of chronic pain. The other reason is for opioid treatment at a methadone treatment center.

Some patients are looking for how to get methadone for their pain because they have found it more effective and longer lasting than other opioid medications. If this is the case, you can go to any physician and get it prescribed to them for this reason. As long as the methadone is not being prescribed for opioid addiction treatment, any doctor can prescribe the medication.

Some doctors, however,  are uncomfortable with giving methadone this way.  They may prescribe is for only a short period, or they may not want to use it at all.  Much has to do with a particular doctor’s comfort level. They may refer you to a pain specialist who has more experience with methadone because methadone requires special monitoring.

How To Get Methadone : For Opioid Addiction

For centuries, it has been known that opioid medications are addictive.  Methadone was invented in Germany during the Second World War.    Between about 1910 and 1960 opioids were used illegally by doctors and others to treat opioid addiction.  It was not until the 1960’s that it’s use for opioid addiction began to be used legally. The first studies indicated the many benefits of methadone treatment.  Then the use of methadone clinics was born.

Finding how to get methadone for opioid addiction starts with finding a methadone clinic near you.  They are located in most cities. There are methadone support groups online you can access. Other than hospitals and addiction detox centers, methadone treatment centers are to only place to go for addicts.

Methadone is highly regulated.  There is a risk of theft and misuse (diversion) of this medication. This, along with the public’s fear of the idea of giving the opioid addicted individual a narcotic for treatment, led to these restrictions.  Here is more information on methadone treatment.

How To Get Methadone : What About Suboxone

While everyone is worrying about how to get methadone, people forget there is a newer medication for the treatment of opioid addiction. This medication is called Suboxone.  This medication is safer and less addictive than methadone, although suboxone does have its risk.  Find out more about suboxone treatment.

Methadone Treatment Directory and Suboxone Treatment Directory

Dr. Rich is a Board Certified Psychiatrist with licenses in Texas and Hawaii. He treats opioid addiction with buprenorphine and runs a FREE locator service to find Methadone Treatment including Suboxone treatment for those wanting oxycontin help. Find a Suboxone Treatment Clinic in your area. Dr. Rich has written more articles on methadone, buprenorphine (Suboxone) including d a recent post : Opioid Addiction : 10 Questions For You

More Resources Related on How To Get Methadone

National Library of Medicine Abstract: Methadone maintenance treatment: a review of historical and clinical issues

Certification for Opioid Treatment Program: SAMHSA

National Institute On Drug Abuse

 

 

Dear Colleague

SAMHSA encourages physicians, physician assistants, nurse practitioners, pharmacists,
other Staff in Opioid Treatment Programs (OTPs) and DATA-Waived Physicians to utilize State Prescription Drug Monitoring
Programs (PDMPs) as an additional resource to maximize safety of patient care pursuant to applicable state guidelines.
The illicit use of prescription drugs (i.e. opioids, stimulants, and sedatives) is a major public health problem. In addition, prescription
drug issues affect patients in OTPs. Click here to read the letter.

Effects of Methadone : More Than For Methadone Treatment

What Are The Effects of Methadone ?

Effects of Methadone

Effects of Methadone

There are mainly two groups of people who need to know the effects of methadone.  The person who is being treated for pain with methadone is one.  The other is the opioid addicted individual who wants information on methadone treatment. It is important to realize that the opioid dependent person is not longer limited to the stereotypical heroin addict.

Over the last decade, there has been a rise in the use of oxycontin in addition to methadone for the treatment of various forms of pain.  Many people who never had an addiction started these medications through their primary care doctor for a legitimate reason such as a broken leg or perhaps severe back pain. Some are more susceptible to the addictive effects of methadone.

Although getting an addictive disorder is on of the effects of methadone, when use as directed under the care of a physician, the risk of addiction to pain medications is low (4-5%). There are estimated to be about 30 million patients in the United States so even this small percentage of abusers is a large number. There has been a more recent article indicating up to 1/3 of people being treatment for non-cancer pain on a chronic basis get addicted to opioid medications.  Apparently, this was in the July 2011 issue of the Journal for Addictive Diseases and I have not reviewed the actual article. Here is one link.

There are, however, a much larger number of individuals who are abusing the medication through non-medical sources. Most people abusing opioids are getting the medication through family or friends rather through “drug dealers.” They may be using is for recreational use.  There are many others who are at higher risk to having an one of the addictive effects of methadone: especially those who are  mentally ill and those with an existing addiction,

Effects of Methadone

  • Treatment of Pain : Excellent for acute (sudden) pain. Can work well for chronic (long-term) pain, however, the effectiveness for long-term pain is being questioned as compared to other pain relieving medication.  The exception is cancer pain.
  • Increase in energy: Patient report to me lower doses give them energy
  • Euphoria: People describe a “better than sex” feeling.  A feeling of falling backward, being half dead and alive and sleepy.
  • Reduce or stop coughing
  • Reduce or stop diarrhea
  • Treatment of Opioid Addiction (such as methadone maintenance)

Side Effects of Methadone : Go to my article or See Below

Methadone Side Effects List :

  • nausea
  • decreased libido
  • urination problems
  • decreased appetite
  • sedation
  • weight gain
  • flushing
  • abdominal pain
  • constipation
  • vision changes
  • mood swings
  • swelling of limbs
  • weakness
  • difficulty with sleep
  • vomiting
  • missed menstrual periods

Serious Side Effects of Methadone : Call Your Doctor Immediately:

  • rash
  • seizures
  • itching

Rare

  • irregular heartbeat and death

Summary of Effects of Methadone

Methadone is a very good pain reliever and has some other medical uses such as for cough, diarrhea, and the treatment of opioid addiction. Although it can be safely used under proper medical supervision, there is a real risk of addiction. The risk of addiction is more for those with mental illness, a genetic predisposition, and current addicts. Patients taking methadone should be aware of the side effects of methadone to know what to discuss with their doctor.

Other Resourses Related to the Effects of Methadone :

National Pain Foundation FAQ on Opioids

US Department Of Health and Human Services : Research on Prescription Drug Abuse

History of Methadone

Methadone Treatment Center Directory and Suboxone Doctor Directory

Dr. Rich is a Board Certified Psychiatrist with licenses in Texas and Hawaii. He specializes in the treatment of opioid addiction with buprenorphine and runs a FREE locator service to find Methadone Treatment including Suboxone treatment for opioid addiction. Find a Suboxone Doctor in your area.
Dr. Rich has written more articles on the cost of oxycontin, buprenorphine (Suboxone) including frequently asked questions and a recent post : Signs of Painkiller Addiction